You will notice that this interview is by a loyalist woman who would prefer to remain anonymous. That is because women who identify as loyalist can often experience some form of abuse, harassment, or discrimination for identifying as loyalist. This includes sexist, misogynist, and sectarian comments. Wouldn’t it be great if loyalist women were free from this hatred and could identify as loyalist without fear of repercussions? I hope you enjoy this interview with Debbie.
What does being a Loyalist mean to you? How does it make you feel?
It’s difficult to describe. It’s a feeling of belonging and being at one with others. It’s having a certain set of values that influence the decisions you make. It’s being proud of your history and the generations that moulded you by being positive role models. I tend to avoid the use of the word ‘culture’ as I feel it is overused in terms of Loyalism, especially by those who wish to pigeon-hole all Loyalists. It has been twisted into something negative and stereotypical, in order to denigrate Loyalism.
How do you think others view the term Loyalist and how do you think you are viewed for being a woman who is a Loyalist?
As I stated above, the term Loyalist is often viewed as something negative. The media often portrays Loyalists as people who follow blindly, an ideology that is anachronistic at best and at worst, foolish and founded upon myth. They search out the worst in us and present it as the norm. They present Loyalists as an homogeneous group, in which freedom of thought is discouraged and dissent is forbidden. Nothing could be further from the truth! By its very nature, Protestantism and Loyalism gives a voice to those who ‘protest’.
However, within Loyalism, as within other areas of society, there have been those who consider it strange for women to become actively involved. These same men would also have been reluctant to believe that working class men could be leaders. Fortunately, I have found them to be in the minority.
As for being a woman and a Loyalist, I don’t think my sex comes into it. For those who are anti-Loyalist, a Loyalist is a Loyalist, is a Loyalist.
Do you think that the Loyalist traditions, culture and identity is being eroded? If so what aspects are being eroded and why do you think that is happening?
Yes, being older I have witnessed a change. When I was young it was just a given that everyone in our area collected for the bonfire (even the Catholics who lived there), went to watch the processions, got new clothes for the Twelfth. The streets were strung with bunting and the beautiful arches went up. We didn’t participate in these things to annoy, provoke or intimidate. It was ‘just what was done’.
Then ‘The Troubles’ began and it was pointed out to us by Nationalists, that we were being bigoted and sectarian. My Catholic friends were ‘educated’ by Nationalists, who informed them that they should not be attending processions or collecting for sectarian bonfires.
In my workplace I found myself whispering about my plans for the Twelfth, for fear I would be accused of sectarianism.
Shops that used to sell small flags for children to wave, stopped, or kept them under the counter. Even collection boxes for British Legion poppies, disappeared from shop counters. It was as though our identity was something we should hide away, be ashamed of.
Impromptu band parades, when bands would walk around the estate collecting for uniforms, stopped. New legislation meant forms had to be completed and permission sought. It was a chipping away at what had once been ‘just what we did’.
Have you been involved in any marches, protests, demonstrations or are you politically active? If so, please elaborate.
I have never belonged to any political party. I have attended demonstrations. I attended the ‘Ulster Says No’ rally at the City Hall. I attended many demonstrations and rallies during the Drumcree crisis. I also attended the flag protests at the City Hall and Support the Veterans rally.
I also attended several pro-choice marches and rallies.
I marched to prevent the closure of the Jubilee Maternity Hospital, a political decision that has had ramifications for many women.
What are your views on Brexit and the Northern Ireland Protocol? Have you experienced any problems with getting the food you normally buy or ordering things online?
I did agree with the thinking behind Brexit. I am old enough to remember the EEC and, therefore, could understand the concerns when, what had begun as an economic alliance, seemed to be morphing into what could only be described as a European superstate. I had concerns regarding the undemocratic nature of such a state. I also had concerns regarding the ECHR and the fact that its judgments superseded the judgements of our own courts.
My view on the NI Protocol is that I am against it. It should never have been agreed. The UK should have left the EU as one unit, not leaving NI behind as some sort of annexed state. I do feel that the Republic of Ireland government and Nationalists, used the threat of a return to violence to force the implementation of the protocol, however, I blame the government, our UK government, for allowing the EU to include this protocol in the withdrawal agreement.
I haven’t experienced any difficulties with shortages or deliveries. However, I do know that many businesses are struggling with the strict implementation of the administration of the protocol. This will probably lead to a rise in price for certain goods. It is ridiculous that businesses are having such difficulties transporting goods to and from another part of the UK.
What is your view on the Union Jack being limited in the number of days it is allowed to be flown?
I don’t agree. I view this as just another attempt by Nationalist politicians to assert the fact that they now control Belfast City Council. It is no longer a British city, so, it no longer requires the flying of the British flag on its City Hall. Of course, they will present it as an equality issue. Belfast is a city for everyone and the flying of the British flag does not reflect that. Again, the use of equality as the ‘Trojan Horse’. However, when I asked my Nationalist friends did they find the flag offensive, most of them hadn’t even noticed that it was there! So, we have Nationalist and Republican politicians creating division where there was none. But, hey, it’s in the name of equality, so it’s fine!
What is your view on Irish street names and the Irish language?
More division! The requirement that 33% of people in a street must want the signs is also extremely problematic. When was it decided that 33% constituted a majority for ANYTHING?? This could cause further ghettoization within our city.
What is your view on the re-routing of parades or parades not being allowed to take place?
More division and ghettoization. Re-routing parades has only succeeded in polarising communities. Again Sinn Fein play the numbers game. If the demographics of an area such as the Garvaghy Road has altered to put Nationalists in the majority, then it’s majority rule and the parade must be re-routed. The remaining Protestants will then feel unwelcome and leave the area.
How do you feel about a United Ireland? Do you think we are closer to a United Ireland and do you think it will happen in your lifetime?
Putting aside my loyalty to the crown and my inherent Britishness, I would not vote for an all Ireland Republic. Economically, why would I give up my rights to a welfare state and move instead into a state where I have to pay for healthcare etc? I think that many Catholics will think twice about this as well. It is fine for the champagne socialists in Sinn Fein to advocate an all Ireland, they can afford it, but for others who have worked hard to create a good life for their families, it may be too big a sacrifice to make for a romantic aspiration. We as PUL must endeavour to convince our Catholic neighbours of this. We must try to dispel all Sinn Fein’s romantic myths, scare tactics and rewriting of history, and counter their strategies of division.
Do you think politicians understand the issues that concern loyalists? Do politicians listen to loyalists and do you think you have enough opportunity to have your views heard by politicians?
I often think that many politicians have lost touch with real people. Yes, the constitutional position of NI is important to us. However, wasn’t that supposed to have been settled with the signing of the Belfast Agreement? (Just one of the reasons I voted NO – it was a fudge that was never going to deliver.) Perhaps if it had, we would be having significant conversations about social issues and engaging in ‘grown-up’ politics!
I have lived in the same house for the last 20 years and not one politician has called to my door asking for my vote. Now, doesn’t that speak volumes?? My vote is valued – I don’t think so?
What social issues ( i.e. poverty, unemployment, poor physical and mental health, lack of housing etc.) do you feel are impacting upon working class loyalists?
Education, Education, Education!! I can’t emphasise this enough. Unfortunately, there is not enough space here for me to put forward all my views on this – you would require quite a few hours to read them!!!
Housing – the lack of social housing or affordable first time homes for our children is a huge concern of mine. I have emailed unionist politicians about this but to no avail. How times and politicians have changed. When I was first married and living in Sandy Row, I had to contact my local MP (Gerry Fitt) due to a complaint about the Housing Executive. He invited me to his house, and there and then lifted the phone to them. He had the problem sorted in 15 minutes – what a guy!! A real man of, and for, the people.
Do you think politicians are doing enough to address these social issues?
No, they most definitely are not!!
Do you think the voices of Loyalist women are being heard? If not, how can we get to hear more loyalist women’s voices?
I tend not to pigeon hole people by sex. I don’t think that Loyalist women are being silenced any more than Loyalist men. Take a look at our First and Deputy First Ministers – both women. Do I think that Arlene Foster has made it easier for the voices of working class women to be heard? No! So, just having a woman in power is not the answer. For me, there seems to have been the emergence of a political elite; career politicians who ride the gravy train with little regard for the real issues that are impacting so detrimentally upon the lives of their constituents.
In order for the voices of more Loyalist women to be heard we need to find them. They are there, you just need to know where to look. They are there in the parent organisations of schools, leaders of church youth organisations, community groups, mothers and toddlers, women’s centres, daycare centres. They are the foundation and scaffolding that hold up our entire society! The only thing they lack is the confidence to voice their opinions in a wider arena. They need to be encouraged and nurtured and given a platform.
Would you say you are a feminist?
Again, I hate labels. I believe in equality. I believe that women should have the same opportunities and choices in life, as men. However, many working class men and boys also have few choices.
I do believe that my 4 daughters have had fewer restrictions placed upon them than I or my mother and grandmothers did. I was very ‘sporty’ but was prevented from playing football for the school team because it was boys only. Something which had been rectified for my daughters. It may seem trivial, but it is progress. Also, my mother had to leave her job when she married, it was the law in the Civil Service.
Domestic abuse is another concern of mine. Within my mother’s generation, this was kept hidden. Nobody discussed it and those women who were subjected to it, accepted it as part of married life. Whilst there has been progress, there remains work to be done,
Westminster had to legislate for same sex marriage and abortion so women in Northern Ireland could have the same access as their counterparts in mainland GB. What are your views on these two issues? Do you support equal marriage and are you pro-choice?
I have always been pro-choice. I have signed petitions and taken part in rallies. I believe that women must have control over their own reproductive health. I know that this is an extremely emotive subject and that Pro Life groups tend to focus on very late abortions in order to sway public opinion. However, statistics show that these are very rare and the use of the morning after pill is more common. My view is that no woman takes the decision to have an abortion, lightly.
Regarding same-sex marriage, again I believe in equality. No-one should suffer or be discriminated against because of who they fall in love with.
