I am delighted to share this interview with you. I am also proud of Caroline for having the courage to share her views and experiences with you all. Caroline isn’t her real name, while her confidence is growing she still feels there would be a negativity towards her should she identify as loyalist. If anything I would love for you all to reflect on that. We all must do more to ensure loyalist women are able to have their voices and views heard and they can identify as loyalist without feeling they are being judged negatively.
- Tell me about your upbringing, where did you grow up and what was it like?
I was brought up in rural evangelical Loyalism. My father was a labourer who also farmed and my mum worked in factories and washed dishes for a hotel. I have three siblings and we were raised in North Antrim. My family rented the back return of a subdivided farm house and another family rented the front of the house. This is not as unusual as it maybe sounds, decent rental properties were like hens teeth in the country. Our bit was the same size as a two up two down.
We were a religious family and followed the Independent Orange Order and supported the DUP. We were in a Pipe band but we had no musical talent and none of us got past the chanter. We’d go to the bonfire on the 11th night and I loved the 12th growing up and still do. It was better than Christmas. The day before Daddy would bring in an Ulster Banner and a Union Flag and we got to pick which one went up at the end of the lane and which one would be spread on the parcel shelf of the car for the drive to the field. It was really exciting, my parents worked long and unsocial hours so it was a rare day when we were all together. When we moved to our own farm we had to be more careful as the nearest town was majority Republican and Mummy was worried we’d get the windows put in. I’m no longer religious and certainly don’t support the DUP anymore but I am grateful for the education my religious upbringing gave me.
- Would you describe yourself as a loyalist?
Yes
- What does being a loyalist mean to you? How does it make you feel?
To me Loyalism is Unionism with a class conscience. I support the Ulster Covenant and think that the Union must provide material wellbeing and equal citizenship. I think Ulster Protestants meet most accepted definitions of an ethnic group, we have a shared historical journey, shared customs and a shared culture. It is important to point out that this does not relate to race. The Shoukri brothers for example were very much Ulster Protestants and their racial heritage was North African. Being a Loyalist makes me feel proud, our community is beautiful and vibrant and we have kept going in the face of violence, neglect and classist hatred.
- How do you think others view the term Loyalist and how do you think you are viewed for being a woman who is a Loyalist?
I am very cautious of who I tell that I identify as a loyalist because I am concerned that people will make sectarian assumptions about me. I think outside our community the term is always associated with paramilitaries, criminality and racketeering. Middle class people in particular look down on Loyalists and the term is seen by them as like a local equivalent of the class slur ‘chav’. When I read Owen Jones’ book about the demonization of the working class I felt he was holding a mirror up to my community.
I have been subjected to violently sexualised comments for being a Loyalist women, for example being told to “F*** off you UDA mattress”. I have found that to be an openly Loyalist woman is to be the target of vitriolic hate, the comments on Stacey Graham’s twitter are just full of it. I think she and other Loyalist women who are willing to be public are so brave.
As a woman Loyalist from a rural evangelical background in particular we are viewed as tea makers and can be dismissed by our own community especially if we don’t fit the rather restrictive mould.
- Do you think that the Loyalist traditions, culture and identity is being eroded? If so what aspects are being eroded and why do you think that is happening?
Definitely. Bonfires, marching bands and parading are key cultural practices for the Loyalist community and it is a community’s shared experiences that allow it to survive, they are the pillars that hold it up. Attacks on Orange Halls, the push back against parading which began in earnest in the 90s and then against bonfires must be viewed in this light, as an attempt to remove the cultural pillars which hold up the Loyalist community. Cultural Rights are a subset of Human Rights and we need to begin to demand legal protection for our Human Rights, I hope that the Loyal Orders and other Loyalist groups fed this into the recent consultation on a Bill of Rights for Northern Ireland.
Very few Bonfires are actually contentious but the relentless focus on the few that are creates a negative impression of the practice. A part of the problem is that settlements were not built with working class people in mind. Bonfires have been a major cultural tradition in the Loyalist community for some time now but when estates were being constructed to house our community no consideration was given to how we actually live.
Parades are another pillar holding up our identity and opposition to them should be seen in this light. In the late 90’s resident groups were created that were largely manufactured as a deliberate Sinn Fein strategy to destabilise our community. The Bogside Residents Groups is a good example of this as it was formed at a ‘public’ meeting that had not been advertised and was attended by about a dozen people. We handled the situation very badly and lost several parades. We should have approached it for what it was, an issue of us being able to access our human rights.
There is often a lot of talk about shared space but this cannot mean neutral space, there needs to be acceptance that we are able to celebrate our culture. It took 6 minutes for the parade to pass the section of the Ormeau Road that was contested and they could not share space with us for 6 minutes. The INLA threatened to kill any Orangeman seen walking and as we know the state will not protect us so that was the end of that. Drumcree is a another good example. The parade started in the early 1800s and followed pretty much the same route since then. The houses which would become the locus of the residents group were built in the 1950s and serious opposition did not begin until the late 80s. When people tell us to ‘walk where you are wanted’ they deliberately refuse to engage with the fact that they are asking us to base our access to our human rights on someone else’s whim.
Some of the restrictions placed on parades are just petty, for example banning all music from being played when passing a Catholic church. Why can’t we be allowed to play hymns that are common to both Catholics and Protestants in these situations? At Twaddell accommodations were made again and again and it still wasn’t enough. We need to recognise that the Parades Commission is unsupportable and the Orange Order needs to be firmer in negotiations. We can negotiate on the timing of parades, music played and drumbeats used when going past certain areas but that is it. No more rerouting and no more banning. The level of animosity to our culture is shocking so we need to push for recognition of our cultural rights as a subset of human rights.
Attacks on Orange Halls are also part of a concerted attempt to destabilise our community especially in rural areas. Orange Halls hold dances, missions and practice sessions as well as lodge meetings of various kinds. They are essential for community infrastructure and they are also repositories of valuable community artefacts like banners. The halls dotted all over the province represent our rootedness in this landscape. More than 600 of them have been attacked since the signing of the Good Friday Agreement. This is clearly an attempt to make us feel unsafe and destroy our community’s ability to observe our particular practices. If they can take away our culture they can dismantle us.
- Have you been involved in any marches, protests, demonstrations or are you politically active? If so, please elaborate.
More so when I was younger. I was raised in rural evangelical loyalism and my parents and wider community made sure we were very politically and culturally informed children. I was in a pipe band as a child and I was a member of the DUP. As I got older and stopped practicing my religion I feel there was less for me to be involved in. I was going to attend the Flag protest but my Dad warned me not to because he knew that the PSNI would use force. I’m glad he did because he was right. The PSNI should not have access to live ammunition, plastic bullets or water canon. As I got older I was hesitant about getting involved in direct action. Although I’m a former DUP member, they no longer speak for me, I feel politically homeless.
- What are your views on Brexit and the Northern Ireland Protocol? Have you experienced any problems with getting the food you normally buy or ordering things online?
I think Brexit has been a hash. I voted for Brexit as I didn’t agree with an EU military or the agricultural policy and I think the EU is racist. They value free movement within Europe but only for Europeans. Anywhere the EU has an external border it has repressive camps and brutal border regimes. By neglect and deliberate actions they are allowing people to drown in the Mediterranean for the crime of trying to escape violence, religious intolerance or find a better life. As a protestant whose ancestors include Covenanters and Huguenots as well as people escaping the highland clearances and famine in Scotland, I often think of the people making that awful journey hoping for a better life in Europe. I don’t believe the recent report from the Tories saying the UK is not racist, we have so much work to do on that front, but I feel it would be easier to persuade one country to adopt a pro-people immigration policy than 27. The EU are moving towards a supranational entity and I don’t think it will be possible to build the kind of progressive people-first society I want to see within it.
I don’t think that there needed to be the botched outcome that there has been with Brexit. I think people who voted for Brexit are wrongly called bigots, many people on the left wanted Brexit, just not this version. The EU is a neoliberal entity and will not help the working class, its behaviour towards Greece shows that. I don’t feel able to talk about my Brexit opinions with people because in NI it has become sectarianised.
The border in the Irish sea is unacceptable. It changes the status of NI within the UK and jeopardises our economic wellbeing as trade with the Republic of Ireland is worth in the region of 4bn pounds but trade to GB is worth over 10bn. I feel that it was placed there because the Westminster government and EU don’t fear violence from our community in the same way they do Republican violence. I’m firmly opposed to using violence as I think it has never done our community any good. Once you introduce violence to a situation control is lost very rapidly, a solution becomes less achievable, and it allows those who see us as thugs anyway to push for further marginalisation of the Loyalist community. We must oppose the protocol but through exclusively peaceful means.
- What is your view on the Union Jack being limited in the number of days it is allowed to be flown?
The Good Friday Agreement created peace but not prosperity. In the 20 years since it was signed 25% of children here still live in poverty, Loyalist children still face educational disadvantage and the housing crisis has increased. Poor mental health and suicide stalk working class communities. Add to that the feeling that our culture is being eroded and flags become very potent symbols. I don’t think the reducing of the flying of the flag every day to a few designated days would have sparked so much hurt if the GFA had created a just society not just a society with less paramilitary violence.
- What is your view on Irish street names and the Irish language?
I have a deep affection for the Irish language and tried to learn it the first chance I got. As I went to a controlled secondary school I did not get this opportunity until I went to Queens. I went to a night class and during the first lesson we learned how to say ‘hello’ – Dia dhuit (God be with you) and the reply is Dia is Muire Duit (God and Mary be with you). At the time I was still a practising protestant and uncomfortable saying ‘God and Mary be with you’. I knew there had been plenty of native protestant speakers of the language particularly in Donegal so I asked the teacher if there was an alternative reply. She looked at me like I was dirt and said ‘no, you will just always have to say hello first’ she then launched into a monologue belittling Ulster Scots which no one had even mentioned. I felt really unwelcome and did not go back.
I did some of my own research and found out that native protestant speakers had said ‘God be with you too’ in reply. There is also a non religious greeting, ‘Haigh’. I don’t know why she just didn’t tell me. I often hear people saying that Unionists politicised the Irish language but I was there ready and willing to learn and that was my reception by someone whose job it was to teach people the language. I hope the work of Linda Ervine bodes well for the future.
There are plenty of grassroots Irish language activists and enthusiasts and they should have the right to access services in the language. An Irish language act was promised at St Andrews in 2007 and as a condition of re-establishing Stormont recently. Unionists should honour our promises and deliver the act but we must be very cautious about what it contains and it should take a generational approach. This is necessary to reflect the fact that practically all protestant children are denied free access to learning the language and this will prevent us from accessing any jobs created by any Act. The Act should meet the needs of the current Irish speaking community and attempt to open up access to the language in a safe way. This must recognise the previous political misuse of the language.
I would urge language activists to be cautious of Sinn Fein’s support. Sinn Fein use equality issues like equal marriage, access to abortion and language rights when it suits them but they don’t have an actual commitment to these issues. Their recent behaviour on reproductive rights has shown that and they have been back in power a year now with no movement on the act and they seem just fine with that.
Back in the 1980s Sinn Fein was saying ‘every phrase you learn is another bullet’ and most working class protestants first introduction to the language is similar to mine, having Tiocfaidh ár lá shouted at us or seeing it over a mural to a hunger striker or other IRA man. We know that if that day ever comes it won’t be a bright dawn for us. There needs to be an understanding of how working class protestants have experienced the language and that it has been used to mark territory and make us feel unsafe.
In light of this I’m very concerned at Belfast City Councils latest move, lowering the threshold for Irish language signage from two thirds to 15% of residents. This threshold for support is very low and we need to be careful of petition use as there is a history of violent Republicans using petitions to intimidate people. Gerard Rice of the LOCC, a Sinn Fein backed anti-parade group, produced a petition which he claimed had been signed by 92% of residents. A brave woman spoke out and said that groups of men had gone house to house and demanded signatures.
- What is your view on the re-routing of parades or parades not being allowed to take place?
As I mentioned earlier we need to approach this from a human rights context.
- How do you feel about a United Ireland? Do you think we are closer to a United Ireland and do you think it will happen in your life time?
I am afraid of a United Ireland as I would be fearful for the future of my community and maybe even my life. I heard a protestant woman from Monaghan say once ‘to live orange in a green state is to live head down and mouth shut’, why would I want to live like that?
At partition the protestant population of the southern state was about 10%, by the time I was born it had plummeted to 3%.
I think the southern state still has contempt for Unionists, this was seen in the centenary celebrations of the Easter Rising in 2016. Instead of having a commemoration of a deeply violent episode which helped create a confessional state which most Irish protestants had to leave, the modern state opted to lionise these men of violence with Enda Kenny saying they had laid the basis for Irish democracy. They completely ignored the deeply undemocratic nature of the Proclamation which laid claim to the entire Ireland never mind the opinions of Irish Protestants. They still don’t think our opinion counts as they still don’t see us as Irish.
I think it is important that the population of the Republic of Ireland understand that if there was a border poll with a result in favour of reuniting Ireland it would not just mean the destruction of NI but of the southern state as well, it would mean creating an entirely new state. It would mean having to be open to creating new institutions and government structures and certainly abolition of existing foundation myths and symbols. If they are not prepared to do this then what they really want is the northern portion of the island but without half the people living there.
I think we are heading to a border poll in the next 5-10 years unless Unionism starts delivering on the benefits of the Union, the material wellbeing and equal citizenship I mentioned earlier.
- Do you think politicians understand the issues that concern loyalists? Do politicians listen to loyalists and do you think you have enough opportunity to have your views heard by politicians?
No and no! They don’t listen, they use us, they use triggers and fear mongering to stay in power. I feel this is particularly true of the DUP but the UUP don’t really have anything to offer working class Loyalists. There are some decent people in both parties, Doug Beattie and Paula Bradley for example.
I don’t think many of them are particularly interested in our views. I think there is a reliance on the tribal nature of our voting to get them through. I’m a bit disappointed in the PUP about how they have handled anger around the Irish sea border and Storey debacle. More than the other parties they should have understood the strength of feeling and organised peaceful, socially distanced protests to the sea border and protests demanding the resignation of the chief constable. This would have provided a focus for the community and could have built support for them ahead of next May’s election. They could still do this and I hope after Prince Philip’s funeral they do.
- What social issues do you feel are impacting upon working class loyalists?
We need more housing. Educational underachievement is persistent, classism is overwhelming and drugs have infiltrated our communities as people self-medicate to try and deal with mental health problems.
Attempted manipulation by bigoted groups like ‘Britain First’ is also an issue we have to confront as a community and drive out. Don’t be fooled by them holding Union flags, they are no friends of the Union. Equal Citizenship has to mean exactly that and this must include newly arrived people many of whom have made perilous journeys to make this country their home. It also must include more established minority groups like the thousands of black Britons descended from the Windrush generation who continue to face racism and a denial of Equal Citizenship.
- Do you think politicians are doing enough to address these social issues?
No. Both the DUP and the UUP are committed to academic selection which is clearly not working for our community and has its origins in the discredited eugenics movement. Children can and do thrive if they don’t go to a grammar school but the deck is stacked against us. I went to a state secondary school and then to an integrated grammar for my A levels. The quality of teaching in the two settings was vastly different. Our maths teacher in the high school simply refused to even consider putting anyone in for anything other than foundation tier as she maintained anyone at a high school was not capable of getting more than a C anyway. My sister, like all of us, got a C in maths because like the rest of us she was told she was capable of nothing more. She now has a PHD in statistics.
The 11+ is class segregation not academic selection and this needs to be acknowledged. It functions as a way of replicated and protecting class privilege. They don’t even try to hide this, the grammar school I went to for my A levels had an admissions policy for first years of A or B in the 11+ but if you had a sibling already at the school it would take you with a C.
The waiting list for counselling is so long that it is not really an option. A DUP politician recently called people dealing with addiction Junkies and smackheads and did not apologise. We need proper care for people dealing with addiction.
Gregory Campbell made a remark on social media about Songs of Praise that I consider racist and he refused to apologise. I really don’t think they are even doing the bare minimum to address these issues and I’ve only just scratched the surface here.
- Do you think the voices of Loyalist women are being heard? If not, how can we get to hear more loyalist women’s voices?
There is very little space for Loyalist women. The majority of Unionist politicians are men, the women’s orange order does not really have a public presence and the LCC is all men. Things are changing, during the Ulster Hall meeting a concerted effort was made to ensure there were women on the platform. Her Loyal Voice has been inspirational and I think it shows what a determined Loyalist woman can achieve, we need to seize the microphone for ourselves not wait until a man reaches it to us. We need more grassroots organisations, a group for feminist loyalists would be amazing.
- Would you say you are a feminist?
Yes.
- Westminster had to legislate for same sex marriage and abortion so women in Northern Ireland could have the same access as their counterparts in mainland GB. What are your views on these two issues? Do you support equal marriage and are you pro-choice?
I am pro-choice completely. I believe it is your business only and you make the decision with the advice of your doctor. I don’t think we should legislate for term limits or laws around fatal foetal abnormality. They are not helpful to women facing the decision of a late term abortion and where term limits have been brought in there is evidence they have been used to mess women around to push them over the limit and they have had to travel anyway.
Personally I don’t think it is the business of the state to sanction relationships between consenting adults. I don’t support marriage as an institution and I feel that even after the passing of Equal Marriage the rigid view the law takes still creates a hierarchy of relationships. That being said, if the state is going to sanction unions between straight couples it absolutely has to sanction them for same sex couples too. When it comes to these provisions being brought in by Westminster to me it is another example of Unionist parties failing to deliver the material benefits and Equal Citizenship the Union should provide.
- How do you feel about working in the Women’s Sector as a Loyalist women? How have you felt over the years when you didn’t hear any other similar voices from loyalist women who are prochoice or feminists.
I love working in the women’s sector but there have been several sectarian incidences and often as a Loyalist woman working in the women’s sector has been an isolating experience. Where I work about 20% of the staff are from the PUL community and I am the only Loyalist. Different colleagues have used a sectarian slur during a staff meeting, told a joke where Presbyterian women were the punchline and shared videos from the LAD hate group with me. A senior member of staff called me into their office once and showed me photos of a bonfire on social media and asked me to condemn the burning of tricolours, I was the only member of staff called in to condemn the images. There have been so many wee incidences like this over the years. I would love to see a Loyalist feminist group as this could hold space in the women’s sector for Loyalist women in a safe environment.
It used to really impact my mental health and self esteem as I felt really alone as a Loyalist feminist. Especially coming from a rural evangelical loyalist background, I didn’t know any women who were Loyalist and feminist and when I began to get involved in the women’s movement I still didn’t see any. Her Loyal Voice has been invaluable to me. It is the first time I have found other Loyalists who are pro-choice and staunchly feminist, reading the interviews has made me more confident in both my loyalism and my feminism.
