Loyalist women have faced and continue to face sustained abuse online. Whether sharing their views, commenting on politics, or just generally sharing what is going on in their life and their community, this abuse is constant. Which is why a number of my interviews with loyalist women will remain anonymous or their surnames have been omitted. I wish this wasn’t the case but we live in a country where sectarianism is alive and kicking. I do hope you enjoy this interview from Chelsea.
Do you describe yourself as a loyalist?
Yes, I would definitely say that I’m a loyalist. I would say I’m a loyalist because of my culture and my heritage and the way I was brought up but I’m also a loyalist because I want Northern Ireland to remain part of the United Kingdom so that’s one of the main reasons I would say I’m a loyalist. I would call myself a bit of a modern suffragette as well as well as being a loyalist because I believe in women’s rights.
So what does being a loyalist mean to you? How does it make you feel?
To me, it’s part of who I am, it’s my identity. I was always brought up to celebrate our culture and heritage and we were always told about it but we were also kind of sheltered from what was going on around us. We were born and reared in Mersey Street in East Belfast and obviously the perception was that the area was people who were involved in paramilitaries. That wasn’t the case though. We were Protestants and we were loyalists, we celebrated our culture and we went and watched the bands and this and that. My secondary school was integrated, it was on the Shore Road and I think that’s where I then wanted to find out more about my culture and the history. I had a great history teacher in there and he spoke really well about the 36th Ulster Division and I was so interested in learning more. I am really proud of my history because I’ve studied it, I’ve looked into it, I’m proud of what we’ve achieved as loyalists. You identify as loyalist and people snub you, they look down their nose at you because this day and age I think the term ‘loyalist’ is used as thuggery, criminality, drugs – that’s all you hear but that’s not what being a loyalist is about.
I’m a youth worker, I work on the ground with young people and I always say to them – you are a loyalist first and foremost people might read that and think she’s brainwashing these young people but that’s not the case, to respect others you need to know who you are and were you come from- if we can’t accept the past we’ll never move forward. This is their identity, this is who they are but you can’t be a loyalist and a drug-dealer or you can’t be a loyalist and a thug, and that is why it’s important to educate our young people on what being a loyalist actually means. The pen is mightier than the sword. There’s so much more meaning to being a loyalist and so much history to it, it’s just not about a name. And I think women in particular, as the years have went on especially from the seventies, culture has changed, the area has changed, even community, it has changed. But it’s like a dirty word – loyalist. So women don’t really tend to use it because if you’re seen as a loyalist you’re seen as just someone who stands with a Union Jack, that’s the way they see it but it’s not about that.
Do you think that the loyalist traditions, culture and identity is being eroded? And if so, what aspects are being eroded and why do you think that’s happening?
I do. I think our identity is being attacked from all angles. I used to go to all talks on suffragette’s, I went to one in the Crumlin Road Gaol and I actually had to get up and walk out. Gerry Kelly claimed that suffragettes from Belfast were actually republican soldiers and that was not the case, the suffragettes never classed themselves as republicans or unionists. They were all types of women that came together for one reason, to fight for the vote. There was a clear example of someone trying to rewrite history and it’s happening a lot. Obviously the parades and certain celebrations are being attacked too. You can look at it whatever way you want but I do think that year on year more and more parades will not be allowed to go ahead.
Have you ever been involved in any marches, protests or demonstrations and are you politically active? If so, please elaborate.
I have been involved in parades and protests. I walked with the women in the centenary parades, I dressed up as a UVF woman. The gunrunners was the only one I didn’t get to do because I was pregnant. We received funding through the Historical Fund and we were able to do women’s roles right back to the First and Second World War. So we had girls dressing as land workers, we had them dressing as minianettes, we had them dressing as the Canary Girls, the Red Cross, the soldiers – we ensured all the different roles women had were represented because we thought it was so important. We got to walk on the 12th July with the July celebrations, we were also included in books. People were so amazed when they found out all the different roles played by women in loyalist history. I think women’s roles in loyalist history isn’t appreciated in the way it is in nationalist’s history, you don’t really get to hear about what women have done but I was delighted to be able to showcase all the roles that women played.
Why do you think the role of women isn’t recognised as much in loyalist history?
I don’t know. I just think that women were there to help their men and they were there to keep the home-front going and the way the women looked at it was if they weren’t making the bombs in the factory there was nothing for the front line. The same way in the Troubles, I think that they were the backbone of communities. It was women that kept everything going. When I think back to all the stories that I heard growing up it was all about the women keeping the families together, especially if men were in jail, women rallied round everybody, they were the backbone, they kept everything going forward. I know when my mummy was concerned and family stuff was going on, it was other great loyalist women around her that kept her going. Coming from a big family and having kids of her own she obviously found it a lot harder. So I know that there were some great women that haven’t been recognised and sadly they are no longer with us, they are never glorified, we don’t really know their stories. Which is why it’s so important to tell those stories now.
In terms of protests, you’ve talked about the marching, the parades and the importance of the anniversary parades that you were involved in particularly, what about protests? Because obviously looking back at the flag protest is the most significant one of recent times, were you involved in that in any way?
Yes. I did take part in the flag protest like a lot of people we went down to show our support for wanting the Union Jack to continue to be flown, I was also involved in the Twaddell protest, they had a caravan and we would go there with other women. Women guarded the camp and I would have gone and helped out. It’s like a lot of things to be honest, you’re there to fight, you’re there to try and get your point across but the deals are being made behind your back and no-one knows what’s going on. Like Twaddell, for instance, everything was done behind our backs. It was then that we decided to go. What’s the point in protesting with others are doing things behind your back?
Can you tell me a bit about your views on Brexit and the Northern Ireland protocol? Have you experienced any problems getting food you normally buy or ordering things online?
I’m actually in the middle of doing my house and trying to get anything delivered is an absolute nuisance. Right now I’m just sitting back watching it all. I don’t want to comment too much on it because I actually fear for me and I fear for my kids because I don’t know what’s going to happen here. Just in the recent days obviously the spray paint on the wall and communities getting banners made and things, just sitting back and watching it all. I’m intrigued to see what’s going to happen but I’m also afraid to see what’s going to happen.
What’s your view on the Union Jack being limited in terms of the days it’s being flown. What you’re describing there almost is like the feeling that people were talking about back in 2012, there was a feeling of fear and uncertainty about what was round the corner so can you talk a wee bit about your feelings about the flag and how the designated days and your feelings about that?
I think it’s an absolute disgrace that we are part of the United Kingdom and there has been certain days that you can fly the national flag. The flag is more than just a flag. I hate seeing people walking in parades with the flag wrapped round their shoulders or tied around their waists. To me, that’s disrespecting the Union Jack. The Union Jack gets draped over our soldier’s coffins when they come back from war, it means so much. I have family members that serve in the army and when I see people dishonour the flag it really makes me angry because I know that is the final thing that will get drooped over their coffin when the day comes. So, in terms of the Union Jack being on designated days, it does make you angry.
On another issue, what’s your view on Irish street names and the Irish Language?
To be honest I’m just not sure. I think there are more important problems going on right now than a debate about the Irish Language and about changing street signs. When I think of the amount of money that has probably gone into changing all those street signs when we have poverty, that money could be spent in a hell of a lot more ways than changing street names.
How do you feel about a United Ireland and do you think we are close to a United Ireland and do you think it will happen in your lifetime?
It’s scary to me, I hope and pray it doesn’t but part of me thinks it will come. It’s about not knowing what will happen, will it go back to the troubles and the bombing and killings that we had years ago?
Do you think politicians understand the issues that concern loyalists and do politicians listen to loyalists and do you think you have enough opportunity to have your views personally heard by politicians?
No. Although having said that there are some that are doing amazing work and do listen to you, in my job politicians go above and beyond, certain ones. But then it’s the higher leadership that’s failing the party because they’re not listening to the people on the ground. If we had the people that’s on the ground as the leadership it would be a hell of a lot different for us.
What sort of social issues are most prevalent in loyalist areas?
For working-class loyalists I see there is a lot of poverty. People are too proud to ask for help. There is also not enough loyalist housing, and there’s not enough help for working families. Over this pandemic all I see is working class families struggle, struggle to make ends meet. We offer food hampers and we deliver them around each one of our young people’s houses but you’re seeing it and people are scared to ask for the help and you’re seeing it first hand, how hard it is for them to get by but sure the MLAs in Stormont don’t care because they’re not the ones struggling for food, they’re not the ones deciding if they’re going to heat or eat each week.
So do you think politicians aren’t doing enough to tackle these issues or is it a problem at the higher echelons and people on the ground are doing work? What’s your feelings about that?
Well, I think the community is doing amazing, you just need to go around and look. Each area has just went above and beyond to help people in need. There’s not one community I could say that hasn’t, and that’s good community leadership, that’s people who are on the ground seeing what is happening and responding to it. Those in need don’t even need to ask, people are leaving bags at people’s doors and they don’t even know who has left it because the don’t’ want people to feel stigmatized. It is amazing.
Do you think the voices of loyalist women are being heard and if not, how can we get to hear more loyalist women’s voices?
No, I don’t think they’re being heard because I think when any loyalist speaks up, all others see is what they want to see and they stereotype a woman because she identifies as loyalist. I have spoken up loads of times but when I do I’m often attacked or accused of sleeping with people other horrible things. The abuse of loyalist women needs to stop. The way to make women speak up is through education. I think learning about the women from the past, those stories need to be carried forward and young girls need to know and understand our history and our culture. They need to know about the troubles, the suffragettes, the centenary of Northern Ireland. It’s time to start educating our young people about this wonderful history.
Do you describe yourself as a feminist?
I would say I’m a feminist, yes. I believe in everybody equal. I’m A strong believer in women using their vote, but this also mirrors to men using theirs.
Westminster had to legislate for same-sex marriage and abortion so women in Northern Ireland could have the same access as their counterparts in Mainland GB, what are your views on these two issues? Do you support equal marriage and are you pro-choice?
Each to their own and live and let live, love is love. I just don’t see any issues around it.
